John Judge is a member of the 'Coalition on Political Assassinations'. He is known for his research on American political events. He has investigated political crimes in the USA and has looked into the so-called Jonestown 'mass suicide' in Guyana in 1978. (see 'The Guyana Black Hole' by Judge in 'SECRET and SMOTHER': Forbidden Ideas and Secret Stories,' edited by Jim Keith. Portland : Feral House, 1993.) Judge also intervened in questions brought up by the Conspiracy Nation (complete archive on http://feustel.mixi.net). John Judge was interviewed in March 97 by Sherman Skolnick who is a member of the 'Committee Of Citizens for Cleaning Up the Justice System."

Sherman Skolnick: You are an expert on Jonestown. Is there anything in common between this event and Heavens Gate?

John Judge : Of course, I worked on Jonestown and many other so-called 'mass suicides' and I don't believe in them. There is no such thing as a mass suicide in the history of mankind. I don't think a family or three or four people could decide in a tense moment to commit suicide. Even if the brain decides on destruction, the other organs revolt. People can't kill themselves by putting on a plastic bag over their heads as the physical organism automatically demands to take it off. One must be as disciplined as Buddhist monks to perish in flames because of oppression in a fighting situation. But, when we talk about young people in the average American class and expect them to sit down all together and collectively kill themselves, you can't believe it. As for the Jonestown murders, a commission established that it was not a simple suicide. And even the historical example the fortress at Massada - which is supposed to be a collective suicide of Jews during the Roman siege in 79 CE - if the report of the Roman historian, Flavius Joseph is to be believed, it accepts that only a few Jews committed suicide, but the majority of them were massacred by the Romans. I don't think that people who are not under threat could do it. And people from Jonestown were prepared: they were completely isolated, they were drugged, beaten up, stressed, violated, buried for disciplinary reasons, bombarded with speeches 16 hours a day and worked to death. (in the setting of the secret program MK-ULTRA of the CIA in order to study mass conditioning and 'brain washing', these brutalities were applied systematically applied to the Temple disciples of people who were deported from the United States to Guyana.) However, according to the commission of inquiry they did not commit suicide.

Note: In America, John Judge rejects the 'collective suicide' theory with the same arguments as mine, although I just discovered the existence of this researcher while nosing around the internet. Up to now, my opinion about Guyana was based on revelations about the CIA's MK-ULTRA program, but I was perplexed about the Heavens Gate events as, far away from America, I lacked data. In this drama, elements of misinformation techniques used in France aboutthe OST are seen again. See below the role of media commentators charged with creating false trails - especially the actions of Abgrall the psychiatrist.

Sherman Skolnick: Didn't some of them work in local industries? There were mines around Jonestown. John Judge: It's a very rich mining region. I think they were also busy clearing Jonestown's surroundings. I haven't seen any report about this mining activity, but, Matthew's Hills is part of one of the richest gold mines on Earth. There is also uranium and bauxite, with access to the river, the railway tracks and the airport. Union Carbide had invested in this region.

Sherman Skolnick: You think it was a spy operation. John Judge: It was certainly a Secret Service Operation. Jim Jones himself and all his lieutenants had contacts with the American Army Secret Services as well as with the Nazis. (Readers may be surprised by this allusion to Nazis, but Americans know that the Nazis established bases in South American countries after their defeat in 1945. Translator's note)

Sherman Skolnick: the other aspect is they seem to have corrupted local and national authorities. There were cheques sent to people from the United States that finally eventually Switzerland. John Judge: They made deposits of this money in Swiss Banks. They collected people's savings but the money from these oppressed people was not the source of the prosperity, which reach about 2 billion dollars, as from the beginning the members of the community were poor , and excluded from the economic and cultural circuits.

Sherman Skolnick: And this money disappeared into Swiss accounts?

John Judge: Money disappeared in secret Swiss accounts with the help of Terry Buford and Mark Lane who emptied the accounts before they were evaluated. Mark Lane was Jim Jones's lawyer at the time. He was adviser to many people involved in this sort of business.

Sherman Skolnick: What do you think of the Heavens Gate events?

John Judge: Here we have got the strongest evidence. First of all, these people lived for free in a residence that rents for 1,5 million dollars. This estate belonged to an Iranian. The Iranian owner had had troubles with federal authorities the year before as he let Iranian students come into the United States and gave them fraudulent subsidies.Secondly, there was someone named Ian Spiro who was a former member of the Heavens Gate group ten years ago. (The group existed for 22 years) Ian Spiro was supposed to have killed his wife and three children before committing suicide himself drinking cyanide. Sherman Skolnick: That was back in 1992.

John Judge: It is to be noted that Spiro had connections with the fringes of information and spying services from the Middle East. So in this business we have got people who wrote computer programs (the official activity of Heavens Gate's members). The two leaders - Mr. Applewhite and Bonnie Nettles - are mentioned in the 1970 national news. Walter Cronkite interviewed them for the News Bulletin about their rejection of all belongings in order to leave for another planet, and about UFO's. Since that time, they are known as "The Two". The press called Bonnie 'Bo Peep'. And I remember that Mae Brussell talked about them on her recording and talked about the connection with Secret Services in this operation.

Sherman Skolnick: So, these people who died, or who were killed...

John Judge: I think they were killed.

Sherman Skolnick: Are they supposed to have swallowed their family money like in other cults?

John Judge: One assumes they were separated from their families. And usually, the model which was proposed to these people was to sell all their belongings, their houses and everything else, and give away their money in order to reach spiritual perfection. I think it is also very unusual for men to be castrated. (Castrated surgically, but who did it?). And that doesn't mean anything as these people were found lying on their backs, in new clothes, and all exactly in the same position.

Sherman Skolnick: It's the same as in Jonestown, somehow.

John Judge: Yes, it is. Jonestown's bodies had all their faces turned towards the ground; which indicated that their bodies were placed. There were huge vans in front of the house: a 'Ryder truck', an 'airport transit' van and 'Ford Econoline' van. And I wonder whether bodies were not brought inside -- killed in another place over 6 to 7 days. When authorities checked the data on the internet site, they said the addresses led nowhere but to hotel phone numbers.

Sherman Skolnick: We can't say that these 39 people were all computerprogrammers. They said they had business on the run but I am very surprised -- no authority mentioned a track of this activity or of money. They claim an employee from the firm could earn about 10,000 dollars in cash per month. So where did it come from and is there any justification for it?

John Judge: In reality, they did not have a successful business on the Internet. Apparently they had a few customers. There are these other Internet sites I visited and there was a declaration explaining why they were against suicide. And this jargon saying that they hoped to leave with their physical bodies in these flying saucers.

And they had key words -- they mentioned Ruby Ridge, they mentioned Waco, they mentioned Massada. .But I don't even know if the group had an Internet site; these sites could have been made in order to spread misinformation

Sherman Skolnick: What was it about in your opinion?

John Judge: In any operation of Secret Services (or Information Services), one always obtains multiple benefits. Of course for some reason, these people had to be killed. They had to be silenced, or the drama was used to influence some social measures. The ensuing debate focussed on two things: censure on the Internet and whether people had the right to commit suicide and be assisted in a suicide. At first they said Appelwhite was still alive. Now they're saying that Applewhite was among the dead. But they had this idea from the start and I wonder if Applewhite was really among the dead.

Sherman Skolnick: In other words, Internet and euthanasia were the two subjects debated by the official media.

John Judge: And from the beginning, when CNN was asking questions about reports of Heavens Gate, the commentator was Gerald Post. He was at Crossfire five days before the Heavens Gate Event, stating that 'The Internet was full of conspiracy theories diffusing hatred and that it should be censured'. I should mention that he was a professor at George Washington University - he led a course on political psychology - for psychology operations. This guy, Gerald Post, was much more visible and identifiable during the Guolf War, when he was a commentator on CNN and other media as an outside agent (open agent) from the CIA (Central Intelligence Agency), a specialist in psychological evaluation of inside problems.

Sherman Skolnick: Was he related to Heavens Gate?

John Judge: Only in the sense, from the very first day, he was the only official commentator. (Notes: the monopoly of word taking is crucial from the beginning of a misinformationbusiness. This way, just after the discovery of victims from the OST in the Vercors Mountain in December 95 in France, the same psychiatrist, Jean-Marie Abgrall, got the media monopoly, and gave dozens of interviews on the same day, and asserting even before an inquiry opened that it was a collective suicide and one should not look for anyone on the outside who might be responsible). The parallel with the Heavens Gate Event is striking as later on, Abgrall asked for TV programs like the X Files to be censored! On the other hand this psychiatrist was trained by Secret Services when he was studying medicine. As an expert on OST, he had a residence five miles from the massacre site. He was the one who greeted the journalists coming from the around the world after the discovery of the bodies was announced. And he was the one who gave the official version of 'collective suicide' emphasizing the "wild esoteric imaginings."

John Judge: You must closely observe all those who make comments.

There is also the story of the only person who would have left the cult -- 'Rio' is the only name they gave him as far as I can tell. They hid his identity. But he is supposed to have left the cult 5 weeks before the drama. And all of a sudden he is the one who discovered the corpses and warned the police. Classical for a provocateur. In other words if he is involved for this operation, he is suspect number one. But he has not been identified. But didn't he work with this guy - Nick Matzurkis - and I don't think that's his realname? He was marketing in the computer game of some sorts. Matzurkis also had an subcontract with Heavens Gate for his client and that way he was involved in their businesses. Matzurkis got two computer disks by e-mail at the moment of the so-called collective suicide. The disks couldn't have come from their supposed Internet site. Matzurkis put the disks in a safety deposit box and never revealed their contents.

Sherman Skolnick: In other words the first people who talked to the media are commentators who were covering inside operations from the CIA.

John Judge: Yes. There is an expert working for the CIA on inside psychological operations. And the commentators are always important in these situations. In Jonestown, the first two commentators at the national level who declared it was not unusual for all these people to commit suicide were Doctor Joly West from UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute (part of the MK-ULTRA project) and also Doctor Robert J..Liston who, in collaboration with Doctor West, wrote the first books about brainwashing in Korea Which was a lie to camouflage the chemical and biological weapons used in Korea and also to show the necessity for the United States to carry out mental experiments.

Sherman Skolnick: Heavens Gate could be an operation of MK-ULTRA / CIA as it was in Jonestown.

John Judge: That what I think. The story that Nick Mazurkis tells -- that Rio told him he thought they were going to commit suicide. He said he got the message on Tuesday and warned Matzurkis but they did not go and check what happened before Wednesday.

Sherman Skolnick: Are you going to write all this down?

John Judge: I am working with a few people to eventually write something about it. I think they were assassinated. I don't believe that a group whatever it is... even if you manage to convince yourself to kill yourself in an extreme situation, anyway when there is no immediate outside threat I don't think that you could convince yourself like that over a period of six or seven days.

Sherman Skolnick: Art Bell did tell stories about UFOs with the Hale-Bopp comet.

John Judge: The story of the UFO following the comet is part of the legend - as if it that was why these people killed themselves at that time, according to what we suppose comes from an amateur astronomer. That's the Art Bell show.

Sherman Skolnick: Art Bell is broadcast everywhere on the big radio stations that would never find your comments or mine acceptable enough to broadcast. And all of a sudden Art Bell and his stories like 'UFOs In Your Back Yard' were broadcast everywhere.

John Judge: I didn't get any calls from media though I did the first research on Jonestown with Mae Brussell. On the other hand I got a lot of calls from people throughout the country, asking me what I thought of Heavens Gate because of my work on this event.

Sherman Skolnick: Could it have been to divert attention from the increasing number of scandals about Clinton and the White House?

John Judge: There are certainly other elements which are much more important. (Here, Judge developed the events around the King family)

Sherman Skolnick: Your group, the Coalition About Political Assassinations holds conventions or lectures from time to time.

John Judge: We hold an annual conference and we also have a conference every year in Dallas for the anniversary of J.F. Kennedy's Death on November 22nd.

Sherman Skolnick: You are doing your best to make all that known to the public.

John Judge: Absolutely, although the media definitely put up blocks around these subjects. In spite of everything we've done we haven't got any media coverage. Though just a one hour programme on C-Span would give us a national audience.

Our internet site, http://www.nicom.com/~copa - Our e-mail : copa@nicom.com One of my cassettes is distributed by Prevailing Research. It's called 'Cults, Lies and Video'. The cassette contains my analyses on various cults. A lot of these cults were creations of fiction, which were infiltrated and controlled by the government. The idea of infiltrating occult societies in order to control them goes back to the Second World War when the Office of Naval Intelligence asked for the services of Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley - who clamed himself as the '666 Beast'. Crowley sent his disciples into various cults to infiltrate them and find out how they operated.

Note : John Judge gives us a great lecture : " You have to observe the commentators very closely". As soon as an event breaks out, listen to the first one to talk and there you have the key. We just need to transcribe the official lie the other way round. You don't need a decoder.. So the 'collective suicide' thesis is a deception to be interpreted in one way and one way only.

C)LLECTIVE SUICIDE 3D crime of state, committed by Special Services.